I'll cut my shit short... here you go :

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I hear what you're saying Rebel_Bull with the need for class consciousness and so on. I'm just still not sure if understanding that you are part of the exploited masses and even eventualy rising up and fighting against a system that tries to keep you in that place, will lead to a revolution that you and I support/ like. I think it could go another way as well.
My background is not in class organisation but in the fight for setting up autonomous social centes / DIY initiatives against the state and still think that is the way to go. By offering people to get involved into an alternative culture and have places that actively promote anti-fascist, anti-sexist, anti-racist, anti-homophobic (and so on and so on) ways of getting together and are furthermore spaces for thinking beyond the current situation you can possible not only gather but in the process "educate" (they are educating themselves of course) people about how things could be/ should be.
Apart from that, I guess the antifascist action on a street level i have been part of also added to my (disillusioned) views about the possibilities that lie in the emphasis on class as basis for "the revolution".
Hope i didn't repeat myself too much....

It's probably a cop-out for me not to make a personal contribution here, but there is a lengthy debate here which may be of interest:

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Allow yourself the weekend if you want to follow up all the links. It certainly seems to touch on most of the issues raised in the posts above.

Oh, and according to "Moneyweek" article posted today by a member of the Anarchist Federation, Legal & General have declared that we're 95% like to go into recession VERY soon...

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Great thread, some really excellent points made here.

Thatcherism has destroyed "the working class" as we knew it, and replaced it with a "fuck you, Jack,I`ve got Sky Digital" culture. The erosion of traditional heavy industry has eroded Labour`s traditional core support, and the illusion of being"middle class" because you`ve got a few Gas shares and own your own council house., finished it off.
The scary thing is that when the economic situation worsens, what passes for the working class, believe the rot they`re fed in the media and blame the immigrants. Traditional Labour areas become complacent and flabby, allowing anyone with a bit of understanding of human nature and a right wing agenda to make inroads. Witness the BNP inroads in Stoke as a good example.
If the left cannot unite, what can we expect from the proleteriat?
The "Judean People`s Front" scene from Life of Brian was never truer.
Comrades, we`re left to continue the struggle alone.

The situation in Stoke is critical.

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They are not exaggerating when they say they could be running the council in the next three years.

I disagree. Most working class people do still consider themselves as working class. Its the left that have abandoned them because the left looks down on the working class rather than be from amongst them or forms an elitist click that snobbishly sits around in meetings sneering at anyone they don't agree with. I have seen this so many times over the years and it really is a case of "Yep and where are they now?"

Its not the working class who have suddenly lost their principles but rather the left who have a preconceived idea of what being working class is and resent the idea of working class people having a little for themselves. The working class don't wear cloth caps and work in factories and are the "Salt of the earth" types. Yep the working class have nice cars, nice house, nice clothes because people want to look after themselves and whats new about that? (and whats wrong with that for that matter?)

Why have the left failed? Because the left don't interact with people. They don't talk with people and most of all they don't listen to people. I cant recall ever seeing a left wing politician going around the area speaking with people at best they are in the city centre shouting at people. If the BNP are wining in working class areas its probably because they are going around the streets talking with people and most likely because they actually live there.

If the left actually want to regain any respect in working class areas they need to actually listen to what people want, give them a chance to speak.

OK I stand by now to be called for everything..........

Class consciousness has been destroyed by the welfare state, wide screened Tvs and cheap holidays to Turkey. Very few people now has a fully functional brain. It will be difficult in these circumstances for the level of consciousness required for a Revolution to be reignited.

....and you're right Lermantov, the left have abandoned the working class, not only in pandering to middle class values - via "New" Labour - but also through the bribery of state hand-outs , lack of good education and an inability to engage.

Jack Sparrow wrote:

Class consciousness has been destroyed by the welfare state, .. but also through the bribery of state hand-outs , lack of good education and an inability to engage.

This has been a really good thread. I think that these quotes from Jack could be from the 'Daily Mail' though! I particularly liked Lermontov's last post (sounds like a good title for a Booker prize winning novel! ) and shuddered at Chris's about Stoke and the rise of the BNP.

Raising people's aspirations without providing the infra structure to back it up is dangerous.This usually, though not always, means additional funding. People want better public services but are unwilling to pay extra taxes. Same throughout history. Governments will always fund some enterprises that people disagree with ('unjust' wars, free higher education, space programmes, public art etc etc.) but the bottom line is ever bigger contributions to the state coffers are needed. So, nationalisation and state control of industry? Sounds good to me.
Try to remember the diversity of political thought ( the PFJ in LOB is always held up as a satirical example but how true it is!) as any alternative has to be workable. There will ALWAYS be counter-revolutionaries. How will you deal with this? Gulags? Secret police? Or ignore them and have a 5 yearly revolution instead of elections?

I'm always interested when anarchists are critical of governments (whatever their political colouring - as they're basically the same) and ask what they suggest as an alternative. To me communism, despite its faults seems the most reasonable answer. I always hold up Allende's democratically elected Marxist government in Chile as my example - but it too had massive faults.

So, come the glorious day (October 1917 or whatever) what happens next?

GeordieLes wrote:

There will ALWAYS be counter-revolutionaries. How will you deal with this? Gulags? Secret police? Or ignore them and have a 5 yearly revolution instead of elections? I'm always interested when anarchists are critical of governments (whatever their political colouring - as they're basically the same) and ask what they suggest as an alternative. To me communism, despite its faults seems the most reasonable answer. I always hold up Allende's democratically elected Marxist government in Chile as my example - but it too had massive faults. So, come the glorious day (October 1917 or whatever) what happens next?

Yee-es, I can see your point Les. *Purses lips, taps fingertips together in mock prayer* If I were you I wouldn't fret too much on the subject as my colleagues in the Kontrrazvedka will be popping around to see you soon after the collapse of the State...

As long as they don't catch me while I'm stripping down and oiling my Kalashnikov - I favour the Romanian version with the wooden stock rather than the Chinese one with the folding bayonet - I'll be ready for them....

GeordieLes wrote:

As long as they don't catch me while I'm stripping down and oiling my Kalashnikov

Are you saying you like to get nude while cleaning your rifles??

KINKY!

Les is a big Tarantino fan; he likes to get jiggly down the firing range.

I'm going to renew his subscription to "Guns and Ammo" at Christmas though... foldable stocks and bayonets may be optional, but at least the Chinese version fires straight

St. Pauli in Frisco wrote:

GeordieLes wrote: As long as they don't catch me while I'm stripping down and oiling my Kalashnikov Are you saying you like to get nude while cleaning your rifles??

Doesn't everyone?

[quote="GeordieLes"][quote="Jack Sparrow"] I think that these quotes from Jack could be from the 'Daily Mail' though! quote]

Oh my God! I think I'm going to kill myself now my dreadful secret has been revealed

Ha! Jack, you ARE Melanie Philips and I claim my £5!