I might be going over old ground here but I would be keen to get everyone's thoughts on the currrent controversy regarding Ajax fans and the use of Jewish symbols at matches.

Ajax supporters call themselves "Joden" Apparently this nickname for Ajax fans dates back to before World War II, when Amsterdam was home to most of the Netherlands Jewish community and the stadium itself was located near a Jewish area.

Recently, Dutch authorities have tried to stop Jewish symbols at Ajax, in an attempted to stop anti-Semitic counter-incidents.

I am not even sure if Ajax are even a so called "left wing / Antifa" club. Perhaps any Ajax fans on this message board can tell us more?

Cheers
Ross

If my memory serves me well, which is not always the case, then according to Simon Kuper's 'Ajax, The Dutch, The War', Ajax's old ground - if not De Meer then possibly the ground before that one - was in the Jewish quarter of Amsterdam. Historically then, there were many Jewish supporters and also some players too. I seem to remember that Ajax's board stated to Kuper that they were most definately not a 'Jewish club' - Ajax supporters seem to use the Jewish 'label' in a not dissimilair way to those at Spurs - ie: they're taunted with it so much that they appropriate term and use it as a badge of honour. Like Ajax, with Spurs it's also geographical - the main Jewish areas were in north/east London which meant Arsenal also have a large Jewish support, not to mention Danny Fiszman and David Dein on the board - but they've never been labelled a Jewish club.

It would be surprising if there weren't any Jewish supporters at Ajax at all, though possibly you might find that they are a little more reticent when it comes to anouncing their 'Jewish-ness'. It also should be noted that Ajax supporters in turn enjoy taunting their counterparts in Rotterdam over the way the city was decimated by ariel bombing during the war.

Dutch Jews had the worst survival rate of possibly any occupied European nation during the war - certainly in western Europe - and this issue of compliance / resistence is also looked at in Kuper's book, which is most definately worth a read - though it mightn't be of as much interest if you are after the 'left wing / Antifa' angle on Ajax.

Nice One!
Thanks for the tip, I will check this book out. On a related topic I have just finished reading "Ajax, Barcelona, Cruyff" which was also good read.

I guess for Anti-Fascists it is always important for us to distinguish between support for Israeli Zionism against the Palestinians and Anti-Semitic hate directed towards Jewish people in general. This distinction is not always clear when it comes to European Football fans.

Thoroughly enjoyed 'A-B-C' too. I think that is the book where the whole concept of Total Football is stripped down to basics - and that is that the left-winger must retain possession of the ball for the system to work - or something like that...

Back to the subject though - anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are (or can be), as you stated, two seperate things. And now you have the more 'left-ish' Jews in Britain who are beginning to criticize Israeli policy with regards to the Palestinians, themselves being attacked by hard-liners for espousing anti-Semitic views.

Ultimately, I want to see where people are coming from, even if I can't condone their actions. I find my views on this issue complicated when you bear in mind that the Israeli attitude towards the Palestinians - and the other neighbouring Arab countries - was born out of what happened in Europe not only in WWII, but for a long time before that.

You could probably argue that this fear has evolved into something far more aggressive these days, but that fear was at one time undoubtedly real.

Found this article on the Guardian Unlimited site today - might be of interest:

Only registered users can see links on this forum! Register or Login on forum!

I have heard tell that prior to WW2, Manchester City had a substantial following within the Jewish community.
Their signing of the German POW Bert Trautmann was the catalyst that signified a mass exodus (no irony intended) of Manchester Jewry to United (at that time, I believe, still ground-sharing at Maine Road due to Old Trafford being bombed).

Ross wrote:

Nice One! Thanks for the tip, I will check this book out. On a related topic I have just finished reading "Ajax, Barcelona, Cruyff" which was also good read. I guess for Anti-Fascists it is always important for us to distinguish between support for Israeli Zionism against the Palestinians and Anti-Semitic hate directed towards Jewish people in general. This distinction is not always clear when it comes to European Football fans.

I'm not sure that 'anti-semitism' is particularly 'anti-Jewish.' 'Semitic' is a classification of an ethnic sub-group to which 'Arabs' belong, as well as Jews of middle-eastern origins, who are, in terms of the worldwide Jewish population, a minority.

I've just spent some time in Amsterdam and I was having this exact conversation with a Willem II friend of mine. You are right - despite the F-Side hooligans display of the Israeli flag and star of david, Ajax isn't strictly a Jewish club, although their original home was close to the "Jewish quarter" so meant that they attracted a local following. I also recall that they had a long serving Jewish physio that became a talisman during the Rinus Michels era and that he was loved as he reflected the very integrated nature of Amsterdam before the war. My mate was explaining that many Amsterdam slang words derive from Yiddish, but as I don't speak Dutch I don't know for sure!

But he was adamant the real reason is that it has been adopted as a reaction to other clubs (mainly Feyenoord) insults, maybe the way some Spurs fans have adopted a certain moniker to describe themselves.

I don't know much about the Ajax experience, but as I seem to be the token Spur on the board, I'd thought I'd weigh in as this is something that has caused quite a bit of discussion on Spurs forums, especially with the growth of the Premiership internationally.

Although the club undeniably has deep Jewish connections, both amongst the board and fan base, Jewish Spurs supporters will be in a double minority: most Jews don't support Spurs, and most Spurs supporters aren't Jewish. This throws up the biggest moral problem I have with the use of 'Yid' - as a Spurs supporter I'm proud of the way that my fellow supporters have stood up to the racists and have co-opted the word, but do non-Jewish Spurs supporters - who on simple numbers will be the majority of people who use the term - have the right to decide what is offensive or not?

There's also an argument that use of the word Yid encourages knuckle scrapers from other clubs to respond with deeply offensive chants and gestures. There were a couple of very high profile incidents last season where supporters from other clubs (I'm sure you can guess the usual suspects) justified making gas chamber noises, chanting about death camps and nazi salutes by pointing to the various Yid chants by the Spurs fans.

The majority of Jewish Spurs supporters that I've heard talking about this don't have an issue with the chants, in fact many are proud of them. But this is likely to be self-selecting: if people are offended by the terms and chants, they won't stick around long.

Personally, I'm happy yelling yiddo at players or fellow supporters, but tend to draw the line at yid. I think that's because, amognst Spurs supporters, yiddo is a universally positive complement. Yid is a bit more ambiguous and confrontational.

Apologies but somehow I missed this post :

Shakers wrote:

I'm not sure that 'anti-semitism' is particularly 'anti-Jewish.' 'Semitic' is a classification of an ethnic sub-group to which 'Arabs' belong, as well as Jews of middle-eastern origins, who are, in terms of the worldwide Jewish population, a minority.

The actual term 'Anti-Semitism' is anti-Jewish as it was coined in the early 1870's by the German Wilhem Mann. Mann was rabidly anti-Jewish, publishing literature and forming anti-Jewish organizations as well (again the memory is a little hazy). Although there are non-Jewish ethnic groups who are Semitic in their origin, 'Anti-Semitism' does not relate to them.

pissed off christophe wrote:

Apologies but somehow I missed this post : Shakers wrote: I'm not sure that 'anti-semitism' is particularly 'anti-Jewish.' 'Semitic' is a classification of an ethnic sub-group to which 'Arabs' belong, as well as Jews of middle-eastern origins, who are, in terms of the worldwide Jewish population, a minority. The actual term 'Anti-Semitism' is anti-Jewish as it was coined in the early 1870's by the German Wilhem Mann. Mann was rabidly anti-Jewish, publishing literature and forming anti-Jewish organizations as well (again the memory is a little hazy). Although there are non-Jewish ethnic groups who are Semitic in their origin, 'Anti-Semitism' does not relate to them.

In history we use both terms, Anti-Jewish and Anti-Semitism. Anti-Jewish is than related with religion ("Jews killed Christ"), while Anti-Semitism is of racist origin and was "invented" in Germany at the beginning of the 19th century.

I found this book in particular useful:

Leon Poliakov, “The History of Anti-Semitism Volume 4 – Suicidal Europe, 1870-1933.”
Oxford University Press, 1985.

From memory, the 'traditional', religious form of discrimination has followed those of Jewish faith around Europe since the times of the first crusades in the late 11th century. The concept of a Jewish 'race' didn't exist until the late 19th century and Poliakov cites 1873 as the year Mann coined the phrase (pp 16-17). Not sure if it was when he published ‘The Victory of Judaism over Germanism’, but it was around the same time and signalled the change from the religious Anti-Semitism to a new form of the discrimination that was instead racially motivated.

Helmet Walser Smith's 'A Butcher's Tale' is also well worth a read.

pissed off christophe wrote:

Apologies but somehow I missed this post : Shakers wrote: I'm not sure that 'anti-semitism' is particularly 'anti-Jewish.' 'Semitic' is a classification of an ethnic sub-group to which 'Arabs' belong, as well as Jews of middle-eastern origins, who are, in terms of the worldwide Jewish population, a minority. The actual term 'Anti-Semitism' is anti-Jewish as it was coined in the early 1870's by the German Wilhem Mann. Mann was rabidly anti-Jewish, publishing literature and forming anti-Jewish organizations as well (again the memory is a little hazy). Although there are non-Jewish ethnic groups who are Semitic in their origin, 'Anti-Semitism' does not relate to them.

Thanks for that clarification Christophe. I've never been too sure as to the origins of the phrase. I'd assume then that this fellow Mann's original point was something of a misnomer as surely the majority of Jews in Germany at that time were of non-semitic ethnic origin, but rather Ashkenazi.

I think you're right Shakers - there was never any requirement that Chamberlain, de Gobineau and Mann actually employ any reason in their argument.

So although in pure terms of factual definition, Anti-Semitism could refer to Arabs (for want of a better description), the term came about specifically in relation to Jews, which continues today. I'm not sure, but I've not heard the expression used in any non-Jewish context.

pissed off christophe wrote:

I'm not sure, but I've not heard the expression used in any non-Jewish context.

Neither have I now you mention it.
Unfortunately, I've heard it (or at least the allegation that one might be) as something for hard-line Zionists to hide behind. (i.e. the suggestion that for example, anyone who speaks out against Israeli governmental policy regarding the Palestinian question is in some way anti-semitic).