I realise that the word "Nationalist" mentioned in any political context raises eyebrows to many people, not least on this board; however I have to congratulate the SNP (Scottish National Party) for overturning a "New" Labour majority of 13,000 in Glasgow East and making what is a significant breakthrough in the Labour heartlands of Central Scotland.

Independence Now!!!

while i have SERIOUS doubts about the politics of salmon & his oily bottom feeders, still:

SECOND THE MOTION!

it's a great kick up the ass of the grey suits from millibank towers, though i feel it is FAR too late for the "labour" party to take on board any positive change in direction.

i think they should just bite the bullet and re-name themselves the NEW BRITISH CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATS

dimitri

NO-ONE can dispute or argue with the fact that the SNP have the interests of Scotland and it's people at it's heart.

Ultimately their aim is of course seperation from the rest of the UK and after 300 years even the happiest couple would think about splitting!!!

There's usually an article each week in the London based "newspapers" over here that London is subsidising Scotland...whit a pile of shite that is. It's the other way round.

so... and why would a separated nation scotland be better? Sorry, but I don't get nationalism or even regionalism like that. if the answer is "let's get separate scottish nation" you maybe ask the wrong questions....
I still think progressive politics should never buy into the constructed notion of the nation, it's the root of a lot of things that went wrong in the last 150 years or so...

I don't even think Labour could call themselves NEW BRITISH CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATS. The history of British Socialism owes more to Methodism than Marxism", the Labour Party have now discarded both.

I think it would be funny to see what the Loyalist/Orangist types do if the Union is split, they would become a museum piece over-night like Jacobite re-inactors. Would they still parade?

On the downside it makes England a foreign country which I am not too comfortable with. I live in Greenock and I enjoy meeting working class Scousers , Mancs and Geordies etc...I think this is because we share a common industrial/shipbuilding heritage and an almost identical culture. I don't really feel as if I have as much in common with someone from Inverness or Aberdeen?

So if there is no cultural value to independence then will it improve economic life in Scotland, I would love to say yes but I am really not so sure? Is it really national liberation if you switch one ruiling class for another?

Ross wrote:

Is it really national liberation if you switch one ruiling class for another?

unfortunately this is not rhetorical..... and the answer's "NO"!

DIMITRI

Ross wrote:

Is it really national liberation if you switch one ruiling class for another?

Very good point Ross. I fear that is exactly what would happen if Salmond and Co did get their way.

Here in Edinburgh Labour lost control of the council for the first time in many years at the last elections to a SNP/LibDem coalition. Despite the infamous Central Edinburgh Traffic Management Scheme debacle of a few years ago I'm already pining for the Labour days. At least they admitted when they had made an arse of things and changed it back. The first thing the new council did was announce a raft of school closures, some of which they still seem intent on pushing through.

Ross wrote:

On the downside it makes England a foreign country which I am not too comfortable with. I live in Greenock and I enjoy meeting working class Scousers , Mancs and Geordies etc...I think this is because we share a common industrial/shipbuilding heritage and an almost identical culture.

What's to stop you meeting working class Scousers etc if Scotland became Independent?

I've met and made friends all over the world and feel both enlightened and refreshed having done so.

dimitri wrote:

Ross wrote: Is it really national liberation if you switch one ruiling class for another? unfortunately this is not rhetorical..... and the answer's "NO"! DIMITRI

and why's that? I guess you refer to the flag you sport as your avatar? Especially in that case I don't think that would be true.

the nation is a construct as race is. If I buy into nationalism I might as well buy into racist concepts. i try to explain why I think that (and apologize for not being able to do it with less words).
the idea of the nation is quite recent. there has never been one unified Germany for example, let alone an identification as "german" before 1871 and even that was to extend dynastic power. the british royal family just changed their "german" sounding (cause that is where they came from - intermarriage between ruling classes anyone?) family name to "windsor" which was the name of their family home prior to WWI - until then they were known as the "House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha" line of the House of Wettin with the another branch being called "Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" line of the House of Oldenburg. so much for that...).
the essentialist notion of difference (with "other" "nationalities") and imagined sameness (with people of the same "nationality") is nothing but ideology and just serves, as Benedict Anderson put it, to make us go to war and die for powers that are as far removed from and abstract to individual lives as dynastic spanish rulers were for people in south america in 1795 or whenever... and to create the ability to make people willingly die for something (again see WWI) that is still a powerplay between ruling classes should be seen as one of the underlying reasons for nationalism.
Having said this, I should add that I come from a part of "germany" (national borders all over europe are essentially still the same that were drawn by dynastic rulers who most of the time didn't even speak the same language as their subordinate people) that has been longer in the hands of "habsburgians" e.g the austrian rulers than the prussians (german?) and almost as long part of various french empires. switzerland is 25 min away there and i'm in france in about 10 min. Do I have more in common with someone in northern germany? the regional dialects are the same in france, switzerland and germany in that area (of course nowadays national languages are dominant, but that was part of the national agency to create more visible "difference").
these are just a few stupid examples and I have to stop myself to rant on, but I hope I get my point across.
man, that all reminds me of being young and singing Slime's "Deutschland muss sterben...damit wir leben können" ("Germany must die... so we can live" that played with "Deutschland muß leben, auch wenn wir sterben müssen" ("Germany must live, even if we have to die"), a World War I motto)..... have to see if I have it with me....

Quote:

"What's to stop you meeting working class Scousers etc if Scotland became Independent?"

Aye it's a fair point mate, maybe I am not articulating myself very well but basically I am trying to say that it is not worth going independent over the fucking bagpipes and tartan. Sometimes I get the distinct impression that a lot of peoples notion of Scottish freedom is somehow linked to Braveheart? That cultural identity is has no value, like it or not the point I made about scousers etc... is a more accurate reflection of modern scottish life and I'd hate anything to change that? (Going to Blackpool on Greenock Fair weekend would require a passport WTF!)

I have no strong feelings of patriotism either way, if it was clear that an independent Scotland would be radically different from the UK then I go for it. If this country was to free itself of trident and the royals then I would vote SNP. If Scottish people embraced their own radical heritage and learned about the like Thomas Muir and James Wilson, 1820 etc.. then perhaps yes but we all know that is not currently the situation?

Sorry to go on about this one, but I just had another thought on this, bringing the discussion back round to the by-election...Instead of celebrating the success of a capitalist party like the SNP over another capitalist party like Labour, should we not be discussing the travesty that is the decline of the SSP? Both SSP and Solidarity got around 500 votes each and they could have potentially came third had they not split into two parties? I think both these parties better represent the opinions held by most of the folks on this forum rather than Labour or the SNP.

Before Solidarity came on the scene the SSP were making real ground on Labour but now the most radical opposition in Scotland has been ruined by a daft sexual misdemeanor allegation. It's totally nuts!

Personally, I can't bring myself to blame Tommy Sheridan for this mess, over the years I have watched the man physically stop Poll Tax warrant sales around Greenock, stop deportations, get arrested at Faslane etc... His working class credibility remains entirely intact and like the recent death of Solzhenitsyn we should forgive him any later maistakes due to the brilliant work he did earlier in life. If there is any blame to be handed out then surely it must be placed on the SWP. The Socilaist Workers descision to withdraw support from the SSP and back Solidarity was utterly shameful.

Ross wrote:

Sorry to go on about this one, but I just had another thought on this, bringing the discussion back round to the by-election...Instead of celebrating the success of a capitalist party like the SNP over another capitalist party like Labour, should we not be discussing the travesty that is the decline of the SSP? Both SSP and Solidarity got around 500 votes each and they could have potentially came third had they not split into two parties? I think both these parties better represent the opinions held by most of the folks on this forum rather than Labour or the SNP. Before Solidarity came on the scene the SSP were making real ground on Labour but now the most radical opposition in Scotland has been ruined by a daft sexual misdemeanor allegation. It's totally nuts! Personally, I can't bring myself to blame Tommy Sheridan for this mess, over the years I have watched the man physically stop Poll Tax warrant sales around Greenock, stop deportations, get arrested at Faslane etc... His working class credibility remains entirely intact and like the recent death of Solzhenitsyn we should forgive him any later maistakes due to the brilliant work he did earlier in life. If there is any blame to be handed out then surely it must be placed on the SWP. The Socilaist Workers descision to withdraw support from the SSP and back Solidarity was utterly shameful.

Hmm. The SSP did start to look a bit like a personality cult at times, centred around the perma-tanned working class hero. I agree with you about the good work he did, but it did seem to go to his head.

Of course many would argue that the SNP also tends to look like a one-man-band sometimes as well. Did they not get listed as Vote SNP - Alex Salmond for First Minister or something along those lines on the ballot papers at the last election?

I think I've expressed on this forum before my disappointment that the last Scottish elections were presented in the media as a 2-party affair. The first couple of elections after devolution gave me a lot of hope based on the number of seats going to the likes of the SSP and the Greens that devolution might actually make a difference. Either the papers thought that folk were just too thick to deal with the concept that it's not Labour v SNP, in the way that it's always Labour v Tory in UK elections; or as Ross pointed out, this way it all just gets sewn up between parties with very little new to offer. I'd go with the 2nd more sinister option.

Quote:

The SSP did start to look a bit like a personality cult at times, centred around the perma-tanned working class hero

That is true, maybe we need to completely forget about all types of modern "top down" Socilaism...Chavezism, Castroism, etc...

Is there such a thing as George Gallowayism?

Ross wrote:

Is there such a thing as George Gallowayism?

I can think of one "gorgeous" fellow who is certain of it's existence...

And with the death of a "New" Labour MP yesterday from the Glenrothes constituency that borders Gordon Browns, there will be another by-election soon.

Oh dear...poor Labour.