Being a Celtic supporter I have seen a change in our support due to Modern Football and the 'authorities'. Twenty years ago Celtic Park was jumping with no-stop chanting for ninety minutes-now the atmosphere is dead as the middle class supporters are too busy eating their over priced pies than singing Celtic songs. Only last week I was told to sit down when I stood up to watch Celtic score a penalty. Thankfully away games are better. I have only recently caught the St.Pauli bug and know little about what it was like to support the club back in the eighties and nineties. Has the Clubs changed over that time? Is Germany bracing itself for modern football to arrive or is it already raising it's capitalist head?

I would whole heatedly recommend watching the "I know why I stand here" dvd that is available from this very messageboard. Its copied off a vhs but its cheap, and considering when it was made is really very ambitious. It covers the "early years" as it were i.e. the transformation in the late 80s/early 90s. Its extremely informative and you can really see the love for the place that St Pauli fans hold, not just in the way the video is made but all the great events, boycotts, radio projects etc that took place.

Has the club changed? Im sure. St Pauli as a place has changed too. I cant compare and contrast as Ive only been going this century(!), but I enjoy it. Shakers you've been going since the early 90s, I need your help here! Things might be a bit more...erm...polished (the new stand for example) perhaps than they used to be, but theres still fan influence, standing, affordable tickets, a good mix of people and the fans are still very politically aware. Not bad at all considering its a constant fight against some of the negative aspects of modern football/society in general.

As for the rest of German football, the capitalist head has arrived already hasnt it? I thought that was Hoffenheim!

just to add for nfo , recently the club tried introduce a special currrency , there is a topic on it . the currency was designed so people could buy beers in miller dollars or summit like that

have a look at the topic

jaysus! you should try and take a trip to ashburton grove sometime, we even have a number you can txt to grass up somone who is standing!

gooner wrote:

we even have a number you can txt to grass up somone who is standing!

Really? Bloody hell. Football in this country is well and truely f*cked.

To everyone in Germany: Fight the stupid kick-off times. Fight the telly companies. Fight the price hikes. Don't let them ruin our game.

Coleman67 wrote:

Has the Clubs changed over that time? Is Germany bracing itself for modern football to arrive or is it already raising it's capitalist head?

the clubs (and St.Pauli as well) have changed over the time - everything changes, that's quite natural. Some changes are good, some are not. FC St.Pauli is not a paradise, but through the big influence of the supporters and the members of the club we can at least take part in shaping the future and fight against and prevent the worst things (see campaigns against the Millerntaler and the selling of the name of the ground, though the latter case is not as clear as it might seem). Another example is the new south stand that IMHO is a good and typical compromise: you have a place for the VIPs (Business Seats and lounges) to raise much needed money, but a terrace for 3000 cheap standing room tickets as well, combined with special regulations for the Ultras that moved to this stand etc.

btw: I think it's quite an ironic thing that the club with the next-biggest influence of supporters should be HSV Their supporters chapter of the club has some 40-50,000 members that already blocked some "modern improvements" and have one representative in the board of directors...

Isn't Schalke also a team with a highly influential fanbase?

The growth of the left/anti fascist movement in the Milentor co-incideded with the attempted development of part of the St Pauli area. St Pauli provided those against the redevelopement with a place to meet and to watch football. This happened in the mid 1980's. I believe that up until then the club was not nearly as well supported and that the growth of political feeling being linked the club boosted its support considerably.

It was this support that were the first in Germany to ensure that right wing slogans and emblem were banned from the St Pauli support in the Milentor (although some other teams have been able to bring these emblems to the ground.)

The fans are clued up enough to know what is good for the game and what is not, signings to improve the team are welcome but as the reaction to the Milentor money showed they are not prepared to whore themselves or the club just to get more money to finance these things.

Thats a basic overview - if you type 'transworld sport - St Pauli' into youtube you should be able to get a 10 minute segment that will give more information, also wikapedia will give a bit of info on the subject of the changing face of life at the Milentor. I hope that the above is a short accurate over view, if its wrong about anything please feel free to correct me, I can stand the public humiliation.

Form a personal perspective the atmosphere at Celtic is often nothing short of dreadful. I can only really remember Spartak Moscow last year being the type of electric night that TV comentators dribble on about. I actually enjoyed the Falkirk game a couple of weeks back, a relaxed victory a few beers and Scotland's Shame dropping points before hand seemed to lead to a good atmosphere but Sunday against them lot was back to normal. Too many people want to experiance the atmosphere of a Glasgow derby leading to there not being enough people committed to creating that very at noise level. St Pauli may not be perfect but compared to this side of the water it seems like a state of footballing nirvana.

Pat O' Banton wrote:

Form a personal perspective the atmosphere at Celtic is often nothing short of dreadful. I can only really remember Spartak Moscow last year being the type of electric night that TV comentators dribble on about. I actually enjoyed the Falkirk game a couple of weeks back, a relaxed victory a few beers and Scotland's Shame dropping points before hand seemed to lead to a good atmosphere but Sunday against them lot was back to normal. Too many people want to experiance the atmosphere of a Glasgow derby leading to there not being enough people committed to creating that very at noise level. St Pauli may not be perfect but compared to this side of the water it seems like a state of footballing nirvana.

Pat I also enjoyed the Falkirk game - probably more than any other at Parkhead for a wee while - however I couldn't get over the number of folk leaving early! It's a 3pm Saturday kick off, the team's playing some decent footie and winning comfortably, our new midfielder from Barca has just come on the park, yet still with 5 mins to go the place is half empty! I wish these fannies would just not show up in the first place.

Bhachgen wrote:

Pat O' Banton wrote: Form a personal perspective the atmosphere at Celtic is often nothing short of dreadful. I can only really remember Spartak Moscow last year being the type of electric night that TV comentators dribble on about. I actually enjoyed the Falkirk game a couple of weeks back, a relaxed victory a few beers and Scotland's Shame dropping points before hand seemed to lead to a good atmosphere but Sunday against them lot was back to normal. Too many people want to experiance the atmosphere of a Glasgow derby leading to there not being enough people committed to creating that very at noise level. St Pauli may not be perfect but compared to this side of the water it seems like a state of footballing nirvana. Pat I also enjoyed the Falkirk game - probably more than any other at Parkhead for a wee while - however I couldn't get over the number of folk leaving early! It's a 3pm Saturday kick off, the team's playing some decent footie and winning comfortably, our new midfielder from Barca has just come on the park, yet still with 5 mins to go the place is half empty! I wish these fannies would just not show up in the first place.

Hear hear! It happens at Bolton every home game. Whether 4-0 up ( ) 4-0 down, or balanced on a knife edge at 1-1 or 1-0 off they all go to beat the traffic.

I really can't understand why they bother at all. They make no noise, whinge at you if you dare to stand up and then they're off with ten minutes to go. Literally ten minutes. It beggars belief.

Next time I go to the pictures I might do the same!

Oooo the need to beat the traffic I have to get back to Manchester after game and still manage to stay till 90 minutes, have a couple of pints and still make it home for last orders.

Kowalski I don't know how bad it is at Boloton (I've usually been too drunk to remember any games I've been to there!) but Celtic its truely awful, some games I'd estimate less then 20,000 being in the ground at the final whistle, that's out of 58/59,000 attendence.

People who leave early; the same ones who never sing, the same ones who tell you to sit down during games, the same ones who would have kept miles away from football in the '80s and let it die on its arse. (a wild generalisation I know but certainly the impression I get)

You're probably right Pat.

Average gates at BWFC have dropped from near capacity in 2003/2004 (Just under 27,000 average gate) to under 21,000 average last season. Even back in those 'halcyon' days of 4 years ago, they'd still be off and I reckon there'd be 50% or less left by the final whistle some weeks. Regardless of whether we'd been stuffed and that doesn't happen a lot at the Reebok anyway.

Still the same now I reckon, only it looks worse because the gates have dropped so dramatically.

Pat O' Banton wrote:

The growth of the left/anti fascist movement in the Milentor co-incideded with the attempted development of part of the St Pauli area. St Pauli provided those against the redevelopement with a place to meet and to watch football. This happened in the mid 1980's. I believe that up until then the club was not nearly as well supported and that the growth of political feeling being linked the club boosted its support considerably.

I first got into St Pauli in the early 80s through a girlfriend who was on an exchange at Newcastle University. She supported St Pauli because her father (a dentist from Altona) and 2 older brothers supported H$V, St Pauli were generally unpopular and some of her punk friends went to watch them. Although she was left wing in her views it wasn't the reason that she supported them.

This is the state top flight football has got into.
I remember going along to Celtic Park years ago for a European match against Real Madrid. I can honestly say I have never experienced an atmosphere like it. Hair standing on back of neck time, absolutely amazing. (2-0 for Celts).
Maybe it's a case of so called fans getting used to sitting in nice comfy stands and also winning most of the time. If times got a little hard would they still come along?
At Tynecastle the only time we get a decent atmosphere now is in a derby match against Hibs or playing the Old Firm. The rest of the time it's shit.
I really like going along to watch lower league football. At Carlisle we can still stand on the terracing covered by a corrugated shed. I suppose I'm just an old football romantic but I love these conditions and for me, thats one of the attractions of going to see St Pauli. Ok we have a new stand but the rest of the ground is still a bit like an old pirate ship and not a nice new cruise liner.... I'm getting all romantic again

brido05 wrote:

Maybe it's a case of so called fans getting used to sitting in nice comfy stands and also winning most of the time. If times got a little hard would they still come along?

It's a really good point. I might not be a St.Pauli fan if they would win all the time. For sure, I want to experience at least one single match in Europe with my club in my lifetime. But every single year? discussing whether Ronaldo or Ronaldinho should play for us? Only the ups and downs make club truly interesting to me, only if you have to suffer you can experience true joy. And that's not just the lil masochist in me (well, with St.Pauli I guess it must rather be a really really big one ), that's a basic pattern you'll find wherever you go - we in western Europe are so incredibly rich, still most of us don't run around more happy than many in by far poorer countries. It's the change that brings despair and joy, not the state in which one remains.

But that's exactly what modern football is all about: converting (perverting) a sport, where success is not a neverending guarantee into a business that needs a maximum of stability and very little surprises. It's reliability instead of surprise, show instead of competition. The pure form of that can be seen in the US where teams are simply sold and relocated at the whim of the owner and where there's no such thing as promotion or relegation. A nightmare.